I had an interesting conversation with an atheist yesterday which revolved around the question of prayer and whether or not God talks to us. How is prayer not just my own voice in my head? That's a totally legit question.
Well, what if it is? There are three hypotheses from which to select:
- There is no God. I'm just listening to voices in my head.
- There is a God and He's talking to me.
- There is a God and I'm still just listening to voices in my head.
If there is no God and the material world is all there is, then, like atheist Sam Harris, I can't see a way to get to free will. In that case, I was doomed to sit there and hear voices in my head because that's where my molecules were always going to go. I didn't make any choices. I'm not hearing anything other than random synapses firing because the chemical reactions in my body led me there.
If that's the case, then it doesn't matter what I do or conclude from the event.
The only actionable choices are #2 and #3. At some point, in order to make any decisions at all, I have to trust my thoughts and feelings. That's true whether I'm praying or changing lanes on the freeway. The reason I study my faith and write on this blog is to work out my religion which, as I've blogged before, is nothing more or less than my model of the world as it is.
Everyone has a model like this. It's how we all make decisions, whether those are what to eat or whether or not we should jump into freezing cold water at Lake Tahoe*.
Anywho, the more I study, think and reason out how the world works, the more certain I am that what I'm hearing isn't just me talking to myself. It may be. Faith is still required to select between options 2 and 3, but then again, faith is required whenever you make a decision. You're having faith that your model of the world is right and cheese pizza isn't bad for you**. Yes, thinking you're hearing the word of God caries with it larger risks than consuming massive amounts of carbs and fat, but the principle is the same.
My advice is study and pray. What's the downside?
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| I am reliably informed that this is a fortune-telling shiba inu reading your fate in a giant hamburger. I typed "fate" into the search bar on Adobe Stock and this was one of the images it gave me. It's proof positive that modern weed has THC dosage levels that produce psychotic breaks. |
* - PRO TIP: Jumping into freezing cold water at Lake Tahoe is a bad idea.
** - Your model of the world is deeply flawed. Cheese pizza is horrible.
There's a fourth option:
ReplyDelete- I'm praying, but there's no voice in my head, and no sense that anyone but me is even listening. So what does it matter whether I do it or not?
In any case, it seems to me that the real issue isn't what's going on in my head. It's the people that insist that I should care intensely about the voices in their heads.
Tim, I don't have an answer to that one. Let me think about it.
ReplyDeleteTim - I think I agree generally what you. Isn’t that the problem with the left today? They keep telling me that that they don’t care what I think. Then they insist I must change my thinking to match their thinking even when they are espousing what seems to me to be clearly delusional (men that are women, people with genders that don’t exist in biology, pronouns that I can’t even pronounce - let alone remember, etc). Isn’t the left continuously pushing everything to match every little crazy thought they think (and sometimes big crazy thoughts).
ReplyDeleteSo really isn’t the proper goal to match up our thoughts to reality and to not give in to those who are trying to conform reality to their thoughts?
By the way, I don’t think this actually applies to KT’s comments. He is trying to determine how *he* should react to *his* thoughts (be they divine or mortal).
So a standard atheist answer to the question about science and the existence of God goes something like this. "There is no scientific evidence or empirical evidence that suggests the existence of God. In fact, the concept of God is outside the purview of science, which is concerned with the natural world and the physical phenomena that can be observed and tested. Science does not address supernatural or supernatural phenomena, including the existence of God.
ReplyDeleteThere are many unresolved questions in physics, including the nature of dark matter and dark energy, the origin of the universe, and the nature of space and time. However, the existence of these unresolved questions does not point to the existence of God or any other supernatural being. Instead, they represent areas of active research and investigation in the field of physics, and scientists are working to understand them using the scientific method and the tools of empirical investigation."
But the answer assumes that everything will or can be eventually be explained by science, but every time science advances we find that the theory doesn't address everything. Here are some current areas where we lack knowledge:
"Dark matter and dark energy: These are mysterious forms of matter and energy that are believed to make up most of the universe, but their nature and properties are not well understood.
Quantum gravity: While quantum mechanics and general relativity are both highly successful theories, they are incompatible with each other at very small scales, and a theory that can reconcile them has not yet been developed.
The origin of the universe: The Big Bang theory is the current leading explanation for the origin and evolution of the universe, but many questions remain about the initial conditions and physical processes that led to its formation.
The unification of all forces: The fundamental forces of nature, such as electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and gravity, are described by different theories and are not yet fully understood as part of a single, unified framework.
The nature of time: The nature of time and its relation to other physical quantities is still not fully understood and is a subject of active research in physics."
Quantum decoherence: The true nature of the universe as revealed in the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment.
God's design of the universe seems incredibly clever, so that we are always tempted to rely on our own understanding, until we realize that we really need him.
Not meaning to high-jack this blog post, but I'm going to high-jack.
ReplyDeleteListen to Garage Logic Podcast today. 12/21. Near the end, around 5 minutes to go.
Census Bureau says that the traditional nuclear family is down to 18% of families in the US.
MN, no problem on the thread hijacking.
ReplyDeleteTim, I thought you were getting at what some mystics have called the dark night of the soul wherein they cannot hear God. When that happens, you doubt that He is real. I thought you were talking about that hypothesis being missing from my list, which it was, and what it means.
KT: Yes, that's what I am getting at, except that it doesn't feel "dark". It's just that I don't perceive anyone in my head but me. There is only one voice, and it is definitely mine. It's not "used to hear God but don't anymore", I never heard anyone else in the first place.
ReplyDeleteWhich is OK. I like myself.
Prayer is a way to open the mind.
ReplyDeleteYou can't do that unless you believe in 'something silly'.
Something beyond empiricism.
Something beyond the logic of the physical world and our current science.
Each person has to choose if it's nonsense or not.
Carl Jung believed in an entity he called Philemon.
He had conversations during near sleep and meditation with Philemon.
Was Philemon him?
Something buried in the subconscious?
Much of the knowledge Jung gained came from trusting this voice.
From asking questions to Philemon, and having a conversation.
Jung was scared that he had lost his mind.
Was Philemon God?
Maybe.
Maybe that was God giving messages in a way Jung could accept.
Maybe it's a pretending we need to do to have a serious conversation with the subconscious?
Maybe they are the same thing?
Maybe this is the marriage that Christ talked about.
If one cannot have this kind of prayerful conversation, the answer may be simple.
It's not time yet.
==Your model of the world is deeply flawed. Cheese pizza is horrible.==Only a witch would say that.
ReplyDeleteI also don't "hear any voice in my head" but my own. And even as a child -- raised in a sub-culture in which some people claimed to "hear" God -- I was skeptical of that particular claim. And, nevertheless, I know the reality of God ... and I experience what I interpret as the reality of God's love for me.
ReplyDeleteIf my interpretation is erroneous, how can it really matter? For, if God is not, then I am not, and *all* of my experiences are not. And yet I am, and they are.
==What If Prayer Is Nothing More Than Me Talking To Myself?==
ReplyDeleteNow, of course, I don't believe that prayer is nothing more that us talking to ourselves, nor (as so many 'atheists' like to assert) that it is a crutch for weak, fearful minds. But, if it were, how could that in any way be worse than those strong/courageous/self-sufficient 'atheists' ... relying on drugs and alcohol?