Now dig this tweet.
2019 was a busy year @UKinHolySee🇬🇧🇻🇦. We thank the Holy See and the Catholic networks for working together on freedom of religion and belief, climate change, media freedom, modern slavery, conflict resolution, @end_svc, fake news. We look forward to an even busier 2020! pic.twitter.com/TlQbXqfB1w— UK in Holy See 🇬🇧🇻🇦 (@UKinHolySee) December 31, 2019
Let's look at the list and see if the Catholic Church has any hope of being first or second in any of these business areas.
- Freedom of religion (YES)
- Climate change (NO)
- Media freedom (NO)
- Modern slavery (MAYBE with a lot of our dwindling resources invested)
- Conflict resolution (NO)
- Sexual abuse (MANDATORY after acknowledging this was the Church's Stalingrad - a bad idea that has bled us almost to death)
- Fake news (NO)
The list is also a hodgepodge. If I had to characterize it, I'd say it's a grab bag of progressive causes. It's also a total luxury for the Church which is experiencing massive, simultaneous personnel, customer and financial crises. Imagine JC Penney, near the end of its run, pouring resources into climate change and fake news.
Leaderless, $4 billion in debt and with a stock price below $2, the besieged retailer faces an uncertain fate after posting its latest round of dismal earnings.That sounds like the Church all over - a lack of understanding about what it is, what it stands for, and who it wants to serve. So now what do we get? Climate change, media freedom, fake news and undoubtedly a future push against white supremacists, all seven of them.
"They're in a leaky boat that eventually will sink," said Mark Cohen, the director of retail studies at the Columbia Business School and a former CEO of Sears Canada and other department stores. "The prognosis for the future is not happiness."
...Penney finds itself weighed down by years of errors, failed CEOs and muddled attempts to establish a clear identity with shoppers.
Penney closed 141 stores last year is closing eight more this year. It has more than 860 left, but hundreds are in troubled malls, with leases that prevent Penney from escaping...
Analysts say the company lacks the cash and focused strategy to compete against big box sellers Target and Walmart, which are battling for every inch in stores, and Amazon, which is gobbling up digital sales.
Penney is plagued by a "lack of understanding about what it is, what it stands for, and who it wants to serve," said Neil Saunders, an analyst at GlobalData Retail.
Nigel Fairservice responded particularly cogently. "Catholicism used to be about saving souls for Jesus. You fail."
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| Say, don't we have a parish or two that's doing the same thing? Maybe we should talk more about plastics in the ocean. |
This relates to something you said in your last post:
ReplyDelete"Coerced charity isn't charity at all."
My question is, when people originally joined the Church, was it mostly because they were actually persuaded that it was a good and correct thing to do? Or was it because they were coerced? You know, by being threatened with eternal punishment in Hell if they didn't? Or by being pressured into it by their neighbors once a critical mass of people had joined up?
When I was a kid, I knew exactly why I had to go to church: because my parents made me do it. And they said that they were doing it because they thought I would go to Hell if I didn't go. Some secondary reasons were also given for going (basically that suffering builds character, and that it was supposedly a good way to socialize), but in my experience the Church is kind of substandard in accomplishing those things. So the only real reasons I was ever given were fear of punishment, and social pressure.
I understand that the Eternal Punishment is getting downplayed these days by the church, though (I think mainly because people stopped taking it seriously). And people don't really expect their neighbors to necessarily go to church anymore. So what have they got to draw members in other than that?
You know, by being threatened with eternal punishment in Hell if they didn't?
ReplyDeleteIf I tell you not to jump off a cliff, because you'll get hurt, I'm not coercing you.
I'm pointing out the most likely result of a specific course of action.
It's wrong to blame those who warn you about bad things for the bad things, no matter if it has been popular down the ages.
"... I've always loved this maxim: If you're not going to be #1 or #2 in a business area, then cut your losses and get out."
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, saying "We're # 2" is just another way of saying "We're the biggest loser". So, either: be #1 or cut your losses. ;)
Foxfier: Even granting your argument (which I don't, but I'll let it pass), my point still stands: if the only reason for joining the Church is to avoid a punishment, this is not something that people find compelling. Especially not if there is no way to demonstrate to them that this punishment will even occur. You need to find a positive argument for why people should join, not just a negative reason to keep them from leaving.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't come up with some solid pitch for Church membership that you can explain in a few minutes, and that will convince them that joining the Church will change their life for the better, then I think the Church is doomed. It will take a while to fall, because it has a long way to go, but the trend is established and at the moment I don't see any evidence that they can pull themselves out of it.
Tim, again, it's not punishment.
ReplyDeleteIf I offer you five dollars to do something, you are not punished when you do not do whatever and thus do not get the five dollars.
then I think the Church is doomed
Folks have been saying that from the start. I know I wouldn't bet that way.
Foxfier: But that's my point. The church isn't doing the equivalent of offering anyone $5. They are not giving a positive reason for joining at all. I mean, if you want to replace "punishment" with "torment", and treat God as a mindless force of nature rather than a conscious entity you go right ahead, but I don't see where this really changes the final result.
ReplyDeleteThe church position is, "Give us your time, your money, your loyalty, and your adulation, and maybe it will prevent something bad from happening to you". This is a straight appeal to fear, nothing else. The Church may well have positive things to offer, but getting you guys to get your act together and come right out to say what they are is like pulling teeth.
Incidentally, the way you are approaching this is a perfect illustration of what I think is at the core of the Church's problems. You guys have been complaining about all the people leaving the Church, and wondering what can be done about it. As an example of someone who left the Church, I occasionally point out some of the reasons why I left. And do you look at what I say, and consider the possibility that maybe the Church could do things differently so that my reasons would no longer apply? No, you do not. Instead, you insist that I "just don't understand" and that I am a bad person for even raising these points. Well, all right then. It's no skin off my nose, ultimately. You go right on ahead, let the Church continue hemorrhaging members as all the people who even vaguely resemble me walk off. Keep on pooh-poohing their concerns and insisting that the Church is not in any way to blame. Let the people who remain get progressively more shrill and panicky, and make the environment of the Church even more unpleasant so that people leave even faster. Go ahead and bicker with the Pope about what to do, and maybe have some schisms so you can spall off warring sects. You can even stick your fingers in your ears, and yell, "La La La I Can't Hear You!" whenever I mention these things, as you have a right to do. And when the whole organisation is reduced to a mere shadow of its former self, populated entirely by self-righteous fanatics who secretly despise each other, I hope you will be pleased with what you have made.
I personally am not interested in destroying the Church, and get no joy from the thought of its demise. I just thought that, since you were expressing concern about it, maybe you would care to hear some of the reasons why it is having trouble. I guess I was wrong, and you don't really want advice after all. That's your your choice, I suppose.
Tim, I belong to the Catholic Church because I believe that, like physics, it's true.
ReplyDeleteI thoroughly appreciate your reasons for having left the Church. It's crucial to understand how others think and what motivates them for all kinds of reasons. If I argue with you, please know it's more reflexive than anything else. I'm naturally up for debate.
There are many times when I have regretted what I have replied to you or realized that you have made a superior argument. I apologize for those times when I have not admitted either.
make the environment of the Church even more unpleasant
ReplyDeleteSo much this! What a frustrating waste of time so many of our discussions are! My God, Jesus was announced to freaking shepherds, not to the Ivy League Elites of His day. You know, shepherds, the dudes what drive old Ford F-150s, live in trailer parks and get drunk watching sports on the weekends.
Why do we make this so hard?
The church isn't doing the equivalent of offering anyone $5. They are not giving a positive reason for joining at all. I mean, if you want to replace "punishment" with "torment", and treat God as a mindless force of nature rather than a conscious entity you go right ahead, but I don't see where this really changes the final result.
ReplyDeleteTim, you're doing a great job of showing why no sales job will ever work for you, because you are simply not paying the least bit of attention to it.
The Church is literally offering eternity with God, for the asking.
Being separated from God is what hell is.
It's the default state. Separated from God.
Yet you stand there and demand what the Church has to offer, and talk about it punishing people who-- don't take the offer. By them not being forced to take the offer.
I'll go with Foxie on this one. Being separated from God is what hell is.
ReplyDeleteAnd, if it is possible to be wholly separated from God, that's what (capital-D) Death is.
ReplyDelete