Loose Lips Sink Ships. Words have consequences. And we should take responsibility for what we say and what we do. Target lists like hers have been used repeatedly to terrorize and intimidate. Did Palin cause the shooting, of course not. Was she one of many with national prominence who glamorized the notion of using a gun to subvert democracy, also yes.
Palin's people claim the cross hairs in the poster didn't use gun sights, yet she chooses language like reload when discussing the campaign's success. You can't have it both ways.
KT, lets put it another way, "... if a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web with crosshairs on 20 politician,s and one of them got shot," would you be defending his speech?.
(1) So, you're saying that this guy, and people like him, are just drifting through the world in a perfectly impermeable shell of madness, completely unaffected by anything anyone else says or does, and every now and then one explodes completely at random? And they are completely ignorant of and unaffected by any and all politics? Really?
(and before you say that that's not what you meant, go back and look at what you wrote).
(2) I would think that it would be easier to get a fanatical muslim to do something horrible, if you took care to pick a crazy fanatical muslim.
"So, you're saying that this guy, and people like him, are just drifting through the world in a perfectly impermeable shell of madness, completely unaffected by anything anyone else says or does, and every now and then one explodes completely at random?"
Yes. I'm saying exactly that. I've had prolonged and close contact with someone like that. You have no impact on them at all.
Dig this. Then let me know how political rhetoric has an impact on someone with schizophrenia or something similar.
I found it impossible to get myself into the mindset of the person I knew who was sick for anything more than a half an hour. It's almost impossible to see the world as they do, even when you understand the disease.
If the guy was sick like this or had something similar, there was no political angle to the killings at all.
I wouldn't say Loughner exists in an informational vacuum. But there is no telling how such a person will process the information they do take in. I've yet to hear anyone say that he had ever viewed that graphic from Palin's site. Even if he had, he might have interpreted it as a treasure map for the missing gold caches of Jesse James. Taking it as a literal hit list is the explanation sane people jump towards, but I don't think he's sane. At this point, the only one to blame is the shooter himself.
The only political statement that can really be made of this is that pot should not be legalized. THC can take someone who is predisposed to psychosis and push them over the edge. That may have been the case for this young man. It seems he used pot and went insane.
So, on the one hand, you are saying that someone who is insane in this way is completely unable to process political harangues, even to the point that they couldn't possibly pick up on suggestions by one group that it would be good if their opponents turned up dead.
On the other hand, this guy was clearly together enough to choose a target (with the target being specifically a politician, not just some unlucky random person), acquire a weapon and ammo, seek out the target, and successfully carry through his plans.
These do not sound, to me, like descriptions of the same person. I find your argument unconvincing.
And as a case study of an insane person picking up distorted bits and scraps of political fighting, and carrying out an assassination based on it, see Charles Guiteau.
Tim, my friend, I'm happy to say that you don't fully understand schizoid-like behavior. The one I lived with had regular violent outbursts that I found I could eventually somewhat mitigate, but never prevent. I had intimate knowledge of the person and professional coaching. It took a long, long time to develop behavioral strategies tailored specifically for that particular person. Despite everything I could do, those strategies failed in the end.
I was unable to prevent someone close to me from self-destructing, even when I understood the mechanisms and followed the very latest scientifically-based professional advice. The thought I could somehow manage my behavior, speech and writing to prevent a schizoid I've never met from self-destructing and taking a lot of people down with them beggars my imagination.
Talking to a psychotic is like talking to an alien. This is why a young college girl was motivated to sit near the door with her purse handy when Loughner was in class.
It's not that they are impervious to language or symbols, it's that their interpretations are uncorrelated with the rest of humanity.
Psychosis is a life-destroyer of the first order, even if the psychotic is not violent.
While I'm sure that there are a lot of excitable people making wild claims about how it is all Palin's fault, this is more typical of the sorts of comments I've been seeing.
ReplyDeleteLoose Lips Sink Ships. Words have consequences. And we should take responsibility for what we say and what we do. Target lists like hers have been used repeatedly to terrorize and intimidate. Did Palin cause the shooting, of course not. Was she one of many with national prominence who glamorized the notion of using a gun to subvert democracy, also yes.
ReplyDeletePalin's people claim the cross hairs in the poster didn't use gun sights, yet she chooses language like reload when discussing the campaign's success. You can't have it both ways.
KT, lets put it another way, "... if a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web with crosshairs on 20 politician,s and one of them got shot," would you be defending his speech?.
You guys need to spend more time with schizoids. Political rhetoric doesn't drive any loony anywhere to do anything.
ReplyDelete"if a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web with crosshairs on 20 politician,s and one of them got shot"
ReplyDeleteFanatical Muslim terrorists do it for Muslim reasons. A schizoid does it because he's crazy.
KT:
ReplyDelete(1) So, you're saying that this guy, and people like him, are just drifting through the world in a perfectly impermeable shell of madness, completely unaffected by anything anyone else says or does, and every now and then one explodes completely at random? And they are completely ignorant of and unaffected by any and all politics? Really?
(and before you say that that's not what you meant, go back and look at what you wrote).
(2) I would think that it would be easier to get a fanatical muslim to do something horrible, if you took care to pick a crazy fanatical muslim.
"So, you're saying that this guy, and people like him, are just drifting through the world in a perfectly impermeable shell of madness, completely unaffected by anything anyone else says or does, and every now and then one explodes completely at random?"
ReplyDeleteYes. I'm saying exactly that. I've had prolonged and close contact with someone like that. You have no impact on them at all.
Dig this. Then let me know how political rhetoric has an impact on someone with schizophrenia or something similar.
Try this one.
ReplyDeleteI found it impossible to get myself into the mindset of the person I knew who was sick for anything more than a half an hour. It's almost impossible to see the world as they do, even when you understand the disease.
If the guy was sick like this or had something similar, there was no political angle to the killings at all.
I wouldn't say Loughner exists in an informational vacuum. But there is no telling how such a person will process the information they do take in. I've yet to hear anyone say that he had ever viewed that graphic from Palin's site. Even if he had, he might have interpreted it as a treasure map for the missing gold caches of Jesse James. Taking it as a literal hit list is the explanation sane people jump towards, but I don't think he's sane. At this point, the only one to blame is the shooter himself.
ReplyDeleteThe only political statement that can really be made of this is that pot should not be legalized. THC can take someone who is predisposed to psychosis and push them over the edge. That may have been the case for this young man. It seems he used pot and went insane.
Ivyan, I saw that bit, too. It seems he was a major pothead.
ReplyDeleteSo, on the one hand, you are saying that someone who is insane in this way is completely unable to process political harangues, even to the point that they couldn't possibly pick up on suggestions by one group that it would be good if their opponents turned up dead.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, this guy was clearly together enough to choose a target (with the target being specifically a politician, not just some unlucky random person), acquire a weapon and ammo, seek out the target, and successfully carry through his plans.
These do not sound, to me, like descriptions of the same person. I find your argument unconvincing.
And as a case study of an insane person picking up distorted bits and scraps of political fighting, and carrying out an assassination based on it, see Charles Guiteau.
Tim, my friend, I'm happy to say that you don't fully understand schizoid-like behavior. The one I lived with had regular violent outbursts that I found I could eventually somewhat mitigate, but never prevent. I had intimate knowledge of the person and professional coaching. It took a long, long time to develop behavioral strategies tailored specifically for that particular person. Despite everything I could do, those strategies failed in the end.
ReplyDeleteI was unable to prevent someone close to me from self-destructing, even when I understood the mechanisms and followed the very latest scientifically-based professional advice. The thought I could somehow manage my behavior, speech and writing to prevent a schizoid I've never met from self-destructing and taking a lot of people down with them beggars my imagination.
Talking to a psychotic is like talking to an alien. This is why a young college girl was motivated to sit near the door with her purse handy when Loughner was in class.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that they are impervious to language or symbols, it's that their interpretations are uncorrelated with the rest of humanity.
Psychosis is a life-destroyer of the first order, even if the psychotic is not violent.
"Talking to a psychotic is like talking to an alien."
ReplyDeleteThat is an outstanding simile.